There is no doubt that the post ‘The Devi of Vedas is Fatima’ is hard to digest for people of all faith. A lot many of you may have questions. That is why I am posting a discussion with a Muslim friend (who too is of opinion that Mohammad Alvi is unnecessarily trying to prove a link of Islam with other books) because you too may have the same questions in your hearts. If your questions are different, feel free to write.
Mohammad Alvi (MA): Hello I am sorry just returned to FB but u r already disconnected
Friend: I’m here sir. Hello
MA: Hope you are fine?
Friend: ALHAMD U L ALLAH
Sir I found ur article very interesting.
MA: Thanks, which one?
Friend: But i found an impression as someone is trying to prove that all devi devtaz were masoom
Devi of Vedas is Fatima
U wrote exhaustive articles.
Can u make it brief in few lines?
What u actually want to say.
MA: Tell me one thing, do you doubt the prophet's tradition about Fatima being part of him and the Quranic ayat about Ahlulbayt being perfectly pure?
Friend: Who the hell I’m to doubt this when Quran is testifying.
MA: Don’t you think if it was part of divine plan to make certain beings from noor, He would not have anything to introduce them among the people who were born prior to Mohammad and in divine scriptures and sahifas revealed earlier?
If you have no doubt and if it was part of Divine Plan to create beings who had a link with Divinity as well as mortal human beings, don't you think that God would have tried to introduce them earlier in the previously revealed scriptures and through earlier Prophets?
Friend: Do u believe in Quran?
Friend: Have u read it thoroughly?
MA: Tried to
Friend: Have u read Quran with translation?
Friend: Haven’t u found answer to ur question from Quran then?
MA: Be more elaborate please.
Friend: What u found from Quran as answer to ur question of divine human beings and divinity from earlier scriptures and prophets?
MA: Sorry, I didn't get what you are saying. I found the earlier scriptures perfectly elaborating the content of Quran.
Friend: I’m talking about isn’t Quran the final book?
MA: Yes no doubt
Friend: Isn’t it the final testament after which no book will come which is updated and revised edition of all the books came earlier to it?
MA: I have already mentioned to you earlier in my post. Quran says it is the most elaborate part. And you have seen that Quran is also talking about the earlier books to be parts as well.
Friend: Sir I quoted all the relevant ayats there from Quran.
MA: I have also given the response, if you have seen it?
Problem is we always read the books as books of others. If they are calling their books as divine, we must give them a chance that it could be divine. Which we don't do? We consider they have deviated, we consider they are all on the wrong and we are on the right? Aren't all the sects too doing the same? This is our mentality. It is difficult to get an unbiased mind.
Friend: Why all the stuff that came to ur knowledge never came to any alimz mind or aimaa never referred to that what u preach?
MA: How many alims have the time to read any of these scriptures? [Didn’t notice the word ‘aimaa’ at that time and hence didn’t give the response why aimaa never referred to this.]
Friend: U r stating that everyone is right
Whether they r Christians, Jews, Hindus etc.
Haven’t the earlier scriptures been changed?
Was the Quran was not brought in the light of fact that earlier that divinity was polluted by so called humans claiming themselves divine humans
MA: I am not stating that. I am saying that all scriptures are right, unless we have changed the text, or we have changed the understanding or they are no divine scriptures at all. I am sure you will not dispute that the word of God will not contradict itself.
Friend: Ya I will not dispute with that books were divine and the real versions of early books lie with god only and we have them in form of Quran which will b protected till last day
MA: Where they changed the text, you cannot reach a conclusion. But in cases where they had not changed the text but the understanding, you can reach the intended meaning. That has happened in the case of Vedas.
Friend: Sir go and see Quran telling that they changed that books in all ways. Go and see ecclesiastical history of Europe. They themselves confess that they don’t have original versions. They were given prophets with scriptures to explain them meanings
MA: Probably it was Divine Will that this would happen, I cannot say. But they were not able to understand what the scriptures were saying and concocted their own meanings.
Change can be in the understanding as well.
The books that the God had referred to in Quran got changed. But this was not the case with the books that were not referred to in Quran.
Friend: They r referred collectively; that’s why Quran was needed. Obviously human made scriptures can’t do any service to humanity and divinity as well
MA: Madam, you were given Quran just 1400 years back. If you see the Muslims as a collective mass, tell me what percentage of them have understood the Quran.
Friend: but we have original versions in each home
MA: You are doing exactly what others have done. You are trying to read the other scriptures in the light of view that you are on the right and all the rest are wrong.
Friend: not at all
I’m just asking u whether a divine book should be followed or others which r human made?
MA: You have the original version but what about the understanding. Despite the Quran in the house of each of the Muslims, they don't know the meaning of zulmat, they don't know the meaning of wajhallah, there are so many terms that I have referred to in my reply earlier. They also couldn't find the wives of the prophets who erred and the occasion when it was said to Prophet to deliver what had been told and if he didn’t it was akin to him imparting nothing at all.
FriendL Sir. u r also considering urself right and all others wrong ...as I haven’t come across the researches u r presenting
MA: You seem to have not read the earlier posts.
Friend: if someone doesn’t have understanding then what’s the fault of the book
or we should take this plight that we r not understanding it so all is right
MA: Did the Quran tell what was prior to Adam? No! Did the Quran tell anything about creation of heaven or earth or of Noor? No! Except a sentence or two.
Friend: Sir. I seriously suggest u to read Quran properly
u will find answers
I’m a law graduate
Studied Islamic law too
I have been a distinction holder in English language and literature
I have been a student of history
MA: The more I read Quran the more I get convinced that the Books of the Hindus only define certain hidden mysteries of Quran. So there is no ambiguity.
You have no answers to certain questions that are raised upon reading Quran, but I do have.
Friend: Like what?
Quran itself elaborates its ayat.
MA: You didn't answer any of my questions. If God is omnipresent, all-pervading, closer to the neck, why and where did the Prophet go on the night of meraj?
If the amals of each one of us will be presented on the day of judgment, why did the man in Surah Yasin go to heaven even before azaab came on his clan?
What is meant by zulmat, if by Noor the Prophet and Ahlulbayt are meant?
Friend: zulmat is oppression
negating that noor
MA: This is your derived meaning. It is contradictory to noor and you just said that by Noor, Prophet and Ahlulbayt are meant.
You have derived your meanings and feel confident that you know everything.
Friend: I derived the meanings in the light of quran and ahadith
MA: But you have derived wrong understanding. I also believed in this understanding till I didn't read the other scriptures. But I found better explanation, why should I not read it in future.
You say that the azab of maskh was common till the time of Prophet? You have been a student of history. Give records of one person between Jesus and Prophet when the history was already been written who got converted to monkey from a man.
MA: You have no answer to what is wajhallah. You have no answer to who were the people who were in hell when Prophet was taken on round of hell at the time of meraj. You have no answer to why a seat and throne is mentioned, when God is formless and Non Manifest.
Friend: Ok tell me what u mean by zulmat?
MA: It is divine plan that we have been made equidistant from both Noor and Zulmat. It is not the job of Noor to defeat Zulmat. It is the job of man to defeat Zulmat and go on the path of Noor. It is Noor which will lead us to salvation. Zulmat is the misguiding force that will also lead us astray.
Friend: What u found ?
Have u answers after reading all scriptures? plzz share to give enlightenment
MA: Noor is the force of guidance created at the beginning. Zulmat had been created simultaneously to misguide. It is power. If that is not so, tell me that if Satan was one who lived among the angels, how did it become so powerful that it is misguiding everybody from east to west. If Satan was a worshipper, who misguided Satan itself? Who misguided the earlier creations when this Satan had not become Satan?
Friend: His negation of Noor made him Satan
MA: This is again your derived meaning.
Why Zulmat as a contradictory word to Noor in the first place.
When all misguidance is from Satan, who misguided Satan?
Moreover, who misguided the earlier creations about whom angels say that will you create man who will commit bloodshed?
Friend: Very self of himself
refusing to submit God’s commands
MA: Whoever will refuse God commands will b misguided?
If self misguides then what guides?
Quran says guidance is from Allah. And Prophet Mohammad said that hold on to the rope of Allah. He also said that Ahlulbayt are like an ark of Noah, if you board the ark you will never be misguided.
Friend: all r same
strictly following of ALLAH 's commands is the theme
whats the fantacy there?
MA: Non-submission is the end result. Why does a man continue to falter and deviate?
Moreover, what was the purpose of letting loose the Satan if non submission is misguidance in itself.
Friend: because he doesn’t listen to what ALLAH has said
and do what he feels to do
MA: OK, but if submission means guidance, why create Noor? Tell me the purpose of creation of Noor?
Friend: to tell the Satan that ALLAH never plans anything failure or wrong
accepting Satan's view universe wasn’t made
ALLAH malik e kul hay
MA: Tell me specifically the purpose of creation of NOOR?
That Noor even descended in human beings.
Friend: Read first chapters of Surah Baqra answering all these questions
MA: Kindly explain now the purpose of creation of Noor?
But keep in mind that the converse of Noor is Zulmat, as per Quran.
If Noor descends in human beings, Zulmat also works inside human beings. If Noor guides, Zulmat misguides. It works inside our self only. So you are right it was the self that deviated. But it is the self alone that guides as well.
If there was Satan, justice also demanded that there were the guiding agents. Which were the Noors.
Friend: I will quote Surah Baqra.
I’m just looking relevant ayat.
MA: Madam, it is specifically mentioned that angels said that will you create someone who will create bloodshed on earth. You have not responded who misguided them?
When Satan refused to obey, God said that have you become of the Aalins. It means that there were certain beings about whom Iblis too was aware. And despite knowing about their presence, Iblis used to worship Allah. And God said to angels, you know not what I know. God had not shown promise on the aalins. He had shown promise on the man.
Friend: O mankind! Worship your Lord (Allah), Who created you and those who were before you so that you may become Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2). 22. Who has made the earth a resting place for you, and the sky as a canopy, and sent down water (rain) from the sky and brought forth therewith fruits as a provision for you. Then do not set up rivals unto Allah (in worship) while you know (that He Alone has the right to be worshipped). 23. And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. 24. But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers. 25. And give glad tidings to those who believe and do righteous good deeds, that for them will be Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise). Every time they will be provided with a fruit therefrom, they will say: "This is what we were provided with before," and they will be given things in resemblance (i.e. in the same form but different in taste) and they shall have therein Azwajun Mutahharatun (purified mates or wives), (having no menses, stools, urine, etc.) and they will abide therein forever.
Friend: You have also not mentioned whom did the Prophet went to meet on the night of meraj. Madam, there are such countless verses in Quran and traditions related to arsh and kursi that Ibn Taimiya, considered the originator of Wahabi sect, concluded that God is on the 7th sky and sits on a throne there. You cannot answer this as well without going back to previously revealed scriptures.
Friend: 26. Verily, Allah is not ashamed to set forth a parable even of a mosquito or so much more when it is bigger (or less when it is smaller) than it. And as for those who believe, they know that it is the Truth from their Lord, but as for those who disbelieve, they say: "What did Allah intend by this parable?" By it He misleads many, and many He guides thereby. And He misleads thereby only those who are Al-Fasiqun (the rebellious, disobedient to Allah). 27. Those who break Allah's Covenant after ratifying it, and sever what Allah has ordered to be joined (as regards Allah's Religion of Islamic Monotheism, and to practise its legal laws on the earth and also as regards keeping good relations with kith and kin ), and do mischief on earth, it is they who are the losers. 28. How can you disbelieve in Allah? Seeing that you were dead and He gave you life. Then He will give you death, then again will bring you to life (on the Day of Resurrection) and then unto Him you will return.
and for answer specifically in just few lines by quran is
30. And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allah) said: "I know that which you do not know.
There is no answer in these lines. I am not disbelieving in Allah, nor in Quran, nor disputing any verse of Quran, nor saying that Mohammad was not the prophet. I am trying to understand Quran. And you have no answers to my questions based on Quran.
You are trying to give an ayat related to fasiqun, but none of my beliefs confirm to that ayat.
. And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves before Adam.". And they prostrated except Iblis (Satan), he refused and was proud and was one of the disbelievers (disobedient to Allah).
Iblis was proud
refused to ALLAH's commands
so became a disbeliever
MA: He became disbeliever after refusing. Yes he was proud. OK refused to Allah's command. But why have Satan for us? He refused and could have been punished? But why make him a misguiding agent? And why Noor? You have not responded.
Friend: 8. We said: "Get down all of you from this place (the Paradise), then whenever there comes to you Guidance from Me, and whoever follows My Guidance, there shall be no fear on them, nor shall they grieve.
But those who disbelieve and belie Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) such are the dwellers of the Fire, they shall abide therein forever.
Quran answers everything
We don’t read it properly
MA: This shows that Guidance was supposed to come. And it came in the form of Noor. Thus, it confirms God's plan that He doesn't make guidance written on the sky. Nor the guidance comes in self all by itself. But it is sent through Noor. Likewise, misguidance too doesn't appear all by itself. There are misguiding agents for this.
Friend: Quran has charismatic power
If u have a question as a father.read it from anywhere u wil b answered
If u r a teacher
or any person having any kind of question
MA: Yes it has charismatic power but still you are not answering to my questions. Why Noor? Why aalin?
Friend: U will get an answer
MA: Who are the people who went ahead in Surah Waqiyah?
Friend: Or as many answers as u require
but then it’s a matter of belief
whether we turn our white crow into black or not
MA: Madam, there are no answers. Half the Muslims concluded that God sits on a throne on the seventh sky and half say that He is all pervading and there is no throne. Both are right yet both are wrong.
Tell me who will be the judges on the Day of Judgment when Quran says that God will be the judge of judges.
Why make Ahlulbayt as pure?
Friend: Sir may I know about u?
I mean ur personal introduction
MA: And Quran is talking to Mohammad and calls him as Ahlulbayt as well. Can you tell how it is possible?
MA: I am just a normal human being, who tries to read with open mind, without any previous attachments or detachments.
I have spent a good portion of my life trying to understand why God created us. He felt mercy on me and gave answers to my queries.
My question is that if there is name of Makkah in Veda, how did it come in the book when Mohammad had not taken birth. If there are future forecasts of Prophet even bringing back the sun, even then will you not conclude that there was some divine plan at work.
Clearly, the Hindus won't change their books to include the name of Mohammad and Fatima.
In fact some of them tried to hide it as much as possible. And it was Zulmat who never wanted people to come to the path of Noor. That is why when Jesus was saying all his life that the spirit of truth is about to come, within 500 years Zulmat brought changes to such an extent that by the time Mohammad came, people had begun to regard Jesus as son of God.
Now if I prove that name of Mohammad was taken by Jesus as well, and even that of Ali (Ailya) you will not dispute but when I say that name of Mohammad was taken by Vedas, if you dispute this, it speaks of your pre-set mind.
Doesn't the bible even today says that when Jesus was put on cross, he said, O Ailya why have you left me. And bystanders said, he is calling Ailya for help, let us see whether Ailya comes to his help or not? Will you say that the Christians have changed the Bible to include Ailya? No, in fact they have changed the meaning. They say that Ailya is mention of God. Elsewhere they say that Ailya was a previous prophet. Question arises, why would Jesus call a previous prophet who was inferior to him to seek help? Or if Ailya is God, why has this not been used elsewhere? Why not call God Ailya even today?
Fact is that even Buddha foretold of a birth of a child and a torn up wall. Will you say Buddhists changed the teachings to include about Ailya and the torn wall? No, fact is that they didn't understand. How could they have understood when the wall had not been torn and no birth taken place inside Kaaba till then?
Read this… Buddha’s dream. Once Gautama (prior to his enlightenment) was asleep in his room when he got up with a shriek. He was crying and tears were rolling down his eyes. Upon hearing his shriek, his minister, who was sleeping nearby, got up from sleep. He asked the prince whether he has seen some dreadful dream. The Prince said that it was a dream itself but something other than a dream. The minister cajoled the prince to recount what he had seen and he said: Minister, you know that I read religious scriptures with great care. And I try to find the puzzles surrounding religions. You also know that I endeavour a lot in worship of Ishwar and go into the forests to see his wonders. Don’t ask what happened today. Some Paramatma blessed me today and said that my tapasya has succeeded. Go and recount my name and you will get what you desire. My name is Ailya. If you need to meet me, my house is close is at the Putra sthan, close to the torned wall. You will find me as a child there. But that time is still far away.
Ved Shastri Lala Hargovind in his book Bodha Chamatkar, Omkar Pustkalaya, Kanpur, 1927, published from Saraswati Press, Bombay and Ram Narayan Banarsi’s Risala Bodha Gyan states that when Buddha was on his death bed and his favourite pupil Ananda was crying by his side, Buddha said: Dear Ananda, don’t cry. Don’t lament. I have already told you that it is human nature to leave things dear to him. Anand! Remember that I am not the only Buddha who has come to this world and neither will I be the last of this chain. When the time will come, another Buddha will arrive, who will be the light of the God. He will be pure and reverential and will be given knowledge. He will be famous. One who knows the secrets of the universe! One who will guide the mankind! Teacher of the Jinns and Humans, He will also guide you to the Everlasting Truth that I have shown to you. If my followers are in hundreds, his followers will be in thousands.
He will be known as one who will put an end to the chain of rishis and prophets. On his head, there will be a five-faced crown. That will shine like the sun and the moon. The bigger gem of his is called Ailya. Remember, all these pure beings have taken birth at the beginning, but there is still some time for them to appear. Cruel people will great harm his gems. They will leave no stone unturned to vanquish them. But God will uphold their names, their work and their descendants till the end of the world. Ananda, crores of people like you and me will get tired in his wait. But one who will assist him or his pure companions will be the lucky one. I cannot tell you anything more.
Are all these also not endorsing my understanding of the Vedas?